Thumb click is nice.. How about pinky click?

[JerryKnight]

It was briefly mentioned in an earlier thread. I am trying to use the thumb clicking more often since it works really well. More than once, I have tried to right click with the pinky, since it follows as naturally as the thumb click does from game mode. I can't see any conflict in implementing this, since the thumb click exists. Any plans on having pinky-right-click for 1.39+?

As an aside, how are we doing on firmware space? I hope it's not near capacity yet. :) New features are nice.

[DavidF]

I agree completely. After having used my new TouchStream for 5 days I'm itching to use a third fingertip for clicking and click'n'drag.

It would be perfect if users could move the mouse using 3rd and 4th fingertips, left click with the 2nd (index) and ... even right click with the thumb! - or vica versa.

I realize that clicking both buttons at the same time would still not be possible - like with the current gesture set - because of the 4 fingertip gestures - but single click and right or left click-dragging should be much faster and intuitive.

Please consider this obvious add-on, FingerWorks.

--David

[JerryKnight]

Welcome to the wonderful world of TouchStream. :)

"I realize that clicking both buttons at the same time would still not be possible - like with the current gesture set - because of the 4 fingertip gestures"

One thing you'll notice is that gestures are detected by the number of fingers used (and where they are) at the start of the gesture. In other words, you could start the scroll gesture with four fingers just long enough to have it start strolling, then you could switch to any number of fingers. Same goes for all gestures.

"It would be perfect if users could move the mouse using 3rd and 4th fingertips, left click with the 2nd (index) and ... even right click with the thumb! - or vica versa."

We have this for the left button - turn on thumb clicking in the preference app. This feature kind of breaks that convention I mentioned before, because it looks for the thumb while the 2F mouse gesture is active. This is the same behavior as in Game mode (try that feature, at least once), except game mode lets you right click the same way by tapping the pinky. Now, game mode is nice (I don't use it for games) but it turns off most of the other gestures, so I can't use it all the time, but I still would like to have the convenience of right clicking. There should be no conflict in the gesture set with pinky clicking, as far as I can tell.

[DavidF]

Welcome to the wonderful world of TouchStream

Thanks!

There should be no conflict in the gesture set with pinky clicking, as far as I can tell.

That's what I thuoght. I hope they manage to make it work - as well as optional thumb-clicking as right click.

gestures are detected by the number of fingers used (and where they are) at the start of the gesture.

Yes - I noticed - along with the restrictions that caused for the mouse navigation and especially clicking :)

In other words, you could start the scroll gesture with four fingers just long enough to have it start strolling, then you could switch to any number of fingers.

Sure - it puzzles me though they they chose this instead of initializing the interpretation whenever a new tip was added/removed. The restrictions the current behaviour brings with it seems to outnumber those few scrolling advantages. If they did it "my way" you could type e.g. "ui" with overlapping strokes and then go right ahead and move your fingers and control the mouse pointer without having to raise them first (or "re" for left-handed).

We have this for the left button - turn on thumb clicking in the preference app.

I know but I regret that I've had to stop using it event though it felt instantly natural and intuitive. The problem is that TouchStream's interpretation - as you describe above - causes the click'n'drag feature to malfunction. Or rather - they chose a fingertip already used for right clicking so click'n'drag becomes suddenly right-click'n'drag instead of left-click as you expect which is frustratingly inconsistent and causes too many misactions for me. I seek consistency which doesn't allow for using different fingers for the same action in different situation. I think most humans need to have the same action done always the same way to develop good speedy rutines that doesn't have pitfalls in them making their habits suddenly turn on them.

Game mode (try that feature, at least once)

Thanks I will do that, though like I wrote - I prefer consistency - and complete consistency doesn't allow for modes or exceptions. If FingerWorks make ring/4th finger or better even: any extra 3rd fingertip work as on-the-fly left click along with thumb for right-clicking we'd have almost complete consistency and intuition.

Cheers
--David

[nomaded]

Originally posted by DavidF
The problem is that TouchStream's interpretation - as you describe above - causes the click'n'drag feature to malfunction. Or rather - they chose a fingertip already used for right clicking so click'n'drag becomes suddenly right-click'n'drag instead of left-click as you expect which is frustratingly inconsistent and causes too many misactions for me.

Can you clarify what you mean here?

I have all my TouchStream keyboards set to 3-mouse button mode, with thumb tap for LMB clicking. If I'm mousing with my index/mid, I can very easily bring my thumb down for a LMB click, and leave it down to LMB drag. If I want RMB drag, I use my thumb/ring/pinky and drag as needed. There is no confusion/inconsistancy, to me, between the LMB and RMB gestures.

Am I just not understanding your problem correctly?

[DavidF]

Sorry - I need to clarify where the pitfall is:
With the default gesture set (which I'm currently modifying heavily!) the problem is that in the instance where the pointer is already placed on top of the icon that you want to drag, you can't click'n'drag it by placing two fingertips and the thumb on your pad and drag - like you'd expect after using thumb clicking. You would have to use only two fingertips to move the pointer _away_ from the desired icon, then back again and _then_ put down the thumb at last to start dragging. This happens to me all the time editing sound.

You could choose to change the 2tip+thumb gesture into a button1 drag gesture, but then you'd loose whatever gesture was there before and you wouldn't even be able to let go of the icon the intuitive way - by raising the thumb. No, the current firmware would require that you raised all three fingers and then put down to fingertips once again. All this unnecessary tapping and letting go of the pointer is not very convenient.

I'm trying to avoid the constant tapping of movement gestures since it slows me down every time I have to "let go" and grab hold of the pointer again. Therefore I've actually transfered all mouse buttons to the _opposite_ hand since I'm not typing while I move the mouse anyway. So I might as well speed things up that way achieving the ultimate "thumb click" experience for every mouse button! - and without ever tapping or lifting the pointer moving fingers (or cursor for that matter).

I have one huge problem, though. I have no click'n'drag functionality!! It seems that the device cannot do the simple task if holding down a mouse button - only click it! I mean what's the problem? It works nicely for keys such as Ctrl, Alt and so forth, but _not_ for assigned mouse buttons!? - try it out yourself. I've written the support about this and I'll keep you updated.

Cheers
--David

[JerryKnight]

You probably modified the gestures too heavily. By default, the 3F gesture (3 fingers down at once) is the double click/click drag gesture. So rather than having to move the 2F mouse before thumb clicking, just start with 3 fingers and drag, or don't let up the original 2F gesture.

(Edit) I should also say that the thumb click came well after the initial gesture behavior design. It was by design that the gestures are only detected at the beginning. This way, you could continue a gesture with whatever fingers you want, so things can become more comfortable. Or so they've told us.

You probably assigned the wrong function to your mouse button gestures. Look again through the default gestures for the correct settings.

[DavidF]

No no it was the default mouse set that caused the problem. It's not possible to have this problem with my own settings. (I don't use different amount of fingers ever to move the mouse now).

But you're right about the 3T drag - I started using exactly that because of the default gesture on 2T+thumb that caused _right_ dragging even though thumb was used for _Left_ mouse button. That's the inconsistency I'm talking about - same finger set suddenly opposite mouse button. But I couldn't live with 3T dragging either so I made my own consistent solution as described above. I don't like the 3T and 2T combination for mouse control - requires too many pauses to tap, raise and put down the fingers all the time instead of one smooth movement without breaks when you click - much like thumb click but without the tapping and change of finger amount.

--David

[JerryKnight]

My 2F+Thumb does a middle click. Probably because I have the 3 button mouse feature turned on.

As I'm sure you've found out, the best thing is that if you don't like something, change it. Change 2F+Thumb to left clicking.

As far as inconsistency, FW has been very consistent over the life of this device (I've seen a good bit of that cycle). Thumb clicking was an added feature since some of us probably mentioned it as a feature, and FW often listens to things like that. The "thumb is left" convention is something that is disabled by default, though.

Pretty much, FW gave us the best default set of gestures that they could. They fully expect us to change and improve the gestures to suit our needs. Beyond gesture customizations, I don't see anything for FW to worry about, except for the original topic of this thread. ;)

Hope your click-drag problem is sorted out. I was saying that when you moved the mouse buttons to the other hand, you probably don't have the correct mouse button functions assigned. If the original mouse button gestures don't allow click-drag, then indeed you have a problem for FW to address.

Good luck.

[DavidF]

Oh I understand what you meant now.

I'm glad that FW seems to listen to the users. Their comprehensive gesture eidtor seems to prove that and I love being able to create the most suitable gesture set for me. I just hope that I will actually be able to make it work the way I want.

The original default mouse button settings only allow for on-the-fly clicking if you turn on thumb clicking so what I'm doing is moving the thumb click to the opposite hand for both buttons (though not the thumb). I'm not so sure FW thought about doing it this way and since I've now tried anything to make it work (copying the default sets, creating my own from scratch etc etc), I've given up and I'm waiting for their answer. There aren't really any original appropriate mouse assigns to copy since none of the default gestures have a devoted mouse button without movement at the same time. Only thumb clicking worked a little like that and that unfortunately isn't in the gesture set so I can't copy that. The other ones didn't work. But I hope you're right and that I simply missed something or misunderstood the way the editor works.

--Dave

[DavidF]

I've gotten alot of helpful answers from FW now and it seems it's currently (with firmware v1.4) not possible to activate any action instantaneously at finger thouchdown - apart from the un-configurable/hidden/built-in thumb click. Also the Mouse Point event _does_ actually (and somewhat unnecessary I might add) cancel any mouse buttons held down even if they're held down on the opposite pad. This rules out holding a button with one hand and move the mouse with the other.

But I'm very happy to say that I was informed that these issues might be resolved with the next release where the TimeDown event will probably have configurable time instead of being locked at 500 ms. This will make almost instantaneously triggered events possible. Also a new or changed Mouse Point event will probably be added allowing for holding down mouse buttons with one hand and moving the mouse with the other (click'n'drag) without the movement cancels the button.

Yay!

--David


btw - I should mention that I've solved my thumb-click inconsistency problem by assigning a Mouse Drag using the same button as the thumb-click uses, to the gesture Search & Right Click/Drag (pinky/ring/thumb). This surprisingly makes a middle/index/thumb gesture/drag work like you expect after using thumb-click (the same button for the same three fingers).

[JerryKnight]

(But the last 5 days that I didn't know about 1.42 firmware have been a complete waste. :) )

Thank you very much to Fingerworks for listening to our (mostly mine, in this case) requests. Pinky clicking is great, but I will have to either tweak the hand size to make it better distinguish between 4th finger and pinky triggers or just use them both for right-clicking.

It's encouraging to continue to see that FW is different from the other developers that are blackholes where suggestions go in but all you see are x-rays (automated reply messages).

[fingerworks]

If you want to use pinky click you'll probably need to point with middle and ring fingers. Hand size adjustments won't help.